128 thoughts on “Open Thread #8

  1. FAB Libber aka Dave the Squirrel Post author

    Not exactly radfem related (other than being anti-monachy), but a round up of Prince Philip’s “gaffes” over the years. Not the sharpest crayon in the box, and a good argument against small gene-pools.

    I am *really* sure that the residents of Lockerbie were concerned about “water damage” (no.10). And the crack about Economy Class (no.34) was rather enlightening.


  2. FAB Libber aka Dave the Squirrel Post author

    PC sacked over girl, 14

    A Metropolitan Police officer has been dismissed after a misconduct hearing found he had an “inappropriate relationship” with a 14-year-old girl.

    PC Robert Nicholson exchanged text and Facebook messages with the girl, who lived in a care home in east London.

    The constable, who was 27 at the time, was cleared by a court of sexual activity with a child.



  3. Hecuba

    Oh yes these continuing rape myths played a vital part in this male police officer being acquitted of ‘engaging in sexual activity with a female child.’ The male police officer’s claims were believed over the 14 year old girl’s because unlike the male she is in care and hence her creditability is non-existent. We all know girls in care are commonly ‘sexual deviants who never tell the truth.’

    Furthermore sexual predator Robert Nicholson had also targetted a number of other underage girls who were living in the same care home as the 14 year old girl, but jury either wasn’t told about this or else they dismissed it as irrelevant. After all it is men’s right is it not to have sexual access to any female unless male supremacy deems otherwise.

    Any female child can be misportrayed as ‘sexually provocative’ and seeking to exploit innocent (sic) older males, particularly males who hold positions of power. Such as this male sexual predator Nicholson. Still never mind Nicholson has been dismissed from police force but he hasn’t been convicted of any crime so obviously he won’t be engaging in targetting disadvantaged teen girls for his sexual gratification will he?

    ‘Inappropriate relationship?’ Oh yes another euphemism used to hide fact Nicholson targetted this girl and manipulated her for his own sexual gratification. But wait – the girl is 14 years old so obviously she can’t be the victim can she? No she has agency and choice and she ‘chose’ to enter a sexual relationship with Nicholson hence the only reason said relationship was ‘inappropriate’ is because she was 14 and not an adult autonomous woman!!


  4. jilla

    I won’t bore you with them all but this one of about a dozen small “actions” I did today, having been away from the phone or computer two and one-half hours total. Anti-pornstitution work. It’s not all about being a celebrity:

    Larry Flynt was interviewed today on CBC Radio 1’s pre-eminent lefty dood “progressive” program. It’s such an important program it’s on twice every weekday! Just so fun people don’t miss it.

    Flynt was introduced as a tireless advocate for free speech and a civil liberties crusader. I turned the radio off.


    Here’s a small sample of Larry Flynt’s contribution to culture. This can only be done to women. Jian Ghomeshi and other public relations flacks for the advancement of sexual torture of women would scream like banshees if it was “brown” men depicted here. And of course, this comment will likely not even be published, because you must not even suggest anything like this, in the same sentence as a man’s colour. It would be racist. And THAT makes people mad. This, from Larry Flynt?

    It’s culture:



  5. FAB Libber aka Dave the Squirrel Post author

    Oh diddums, the woes of the porn industy (particularly crying poor).

    It seems likely that porn will eventually lose its battle against the California regulators, not least because – as well as state penalties – the industry could be about to face some very expensive lawsuits brought by former performers.

    A number of actors told me privately that regulation could not come soon enough for them.

    The producers say this will not help workers but will only force production abroad, or underground – the public always gets what the public wants.


  6. jilla

    Re these serial pedo rapists who are suddenly brought to justice (?) when they are octogenarian: I really think it’s planned. They wait until they’re on death’s door and then they can say “we didn’t let this guy get away with it just because he was a judge/cop/politician/.


  7. jilla

    “He was sentenced to four years at Winchester Crown Court, but his conviction was overturned after the Appeal Court ruled the trial judge had misdirected the jury.”

    So he was cleared because the judge erred in advising the jury, not because he wasn’t found guilty.

    Then, his own lawyers gave him wrong advice re his suit against her. Hahahaha.

    What’s the saying? “Live by the sword, die by the sword.”


  8. FAB Libber aka Dave the Squirrel Post author

    This morning’s domestic homicides – a 3yo girl and her mother.

    The story has now been updated with more details.

    It is believed Christine was locked in a dispute with David, who is Shania’s father, and they were due to attend court today.

    Today the Independent Police Complaints Commission sent two investigators to the scene amid claims local officers were aware of an alleged volatile relationship between the former couple.

    A spokesman said: ‘The IPCC has been informed of the case and two investigators have been sent to Braintree to get more information and assess the available evidence before a decision is made as to whether or not it warrants further IPCC investigation.’

    All dv-related homicides are now subject to a DV homicide review.

    Another neighbour, who declined to be named, claimed: ‘She had called the police before on several occasions and there had been a lot of problems in the past.

    ‘Like everybody, she had her ups and downs and we knew there were problems. We knew she was worried about what might happen to her and it seemed she was living in fear.’

    The HM Courts Service confirmed to MailOnline that Christine Chambers and David Oakes were listed to appear at Chelmsford County Court at 2pm today for a 30-minute hearing.

    Neighbours also revealed that Christine’s second daughter Chelsea, 10, whose father is not David, fled the scene of the double shooting through a window.

    Other reports so far won’t comment whether the police shot him, probably not (as none of the stories so far have reported gunshots around 5am when the dude was taken out on stretcher).

    The radio reports don’t mention that it was the (ex-)partner, just that there had been “a shooting”. Rarely do they make any big deal out of the ‘domestic’ part of these homicides – regular women might then be rightly worried.


  9. jilla

    This is an epidemic. She was leaving because he was violent. He would have been violent to the kids too. Why are these men not disarmed, under vigilance?

    For a country where carrying arms and individual (other than the royals) do not regularly hunt, there sure are a lot of these women hate murders.


  10. FAB Libber aka Dave the Squirrel Post author

    They have named him (2nd update on the Daily Mail story).
    I just checked, they have updated the story on the same page again, headline:
    “100 threats to kill: Mother handed police texts days before ex-partner gunned down her and their little girl”

    Says it all. Women are still not being taken seriously by the police in these matters. And ‘threats to kill’ is a chargeable offence in the UK (and frankly, they could get a lot of domestic abusers on it if they wanted to).

    A terrified mother handed police 100 menacing text messages from her crazed ex-partner days before he shot her and their two-year-old dead.

    Chrissie Chambers, 38, made a formal statement to officers last week about David Oakes’s repeated threats to kill her during a bitter row over access to their daughter.

    Nothing was done and yesterday morning Oakes killed Miss Chambers and young Shania in their home.
    It was also claimed that Oakes was subjected to a non-molestation order that prevented him from coming within 100 yards of her.

    Stuart Flitt, 26, who is a half brother to Chelsea, said police had been given warning after warning.

    ‘The last time she made a statement was on Thursday – she was making statements to the police all week,’ he said.

    ‘She gave police over 100 text messages but they never took her seriously.

    ‘These texts threatened to kill her – I had been staying round there for her own safety.’

    A close friend of the family said: ‘The police said to her “We cannot do anything until something happens to you”. She was scared – she sobbed her heart out to me on Friday. This should not have happened.

    ‘The police were in the wrong and they knew about this weeks ago.’

    Anyway, this story is typical of many DV cases where the police do little, they fob it off as ‘lack of evidence’ (even when presented with actual evidence like the 100 text messages). And they should have known that the custody/access case was coming up and to treat the threats as credible.


  11. FAB Libber aka Dave the Squirrel Post author

    Essex shooting: father had been on police’s radar for two years
    A father who allegedly shot dead his former girlfriend and their two-year-old daughter yesterday had been on the police’s radar for the past two years, officers admitted.

    David Oakes, 50, was in hospital under police guard last night after apparently shooting Christine Chambers, 38, and their daughter Shania before turning a gun on himself.

    The shootings, at Miss Chambers’s home in Braintree, Essex, took place a few hours before a court hearing was scheduled to decide custody of the child.

    Friends and family of the couple claimed that Miss Chambers had repeatedly complained to police about Mr Oakes’s behaviour during their turbulent six-year relationship. She had handed police 100 threatening text messages from Mr Oakes as recently as last Thursday, it was alleged.

    Miss Chambers’s 10-year-old daughter from a previous relationship, Chelsea, managed to escape from the house early yesterday and alert family members after Mr Oakes allegedly put a gun in her mouth.

    After a two-hour stand-off with police, gunshots were heard and police entered the property to find Miss Chambers and Shania dead and Mr Oakes with shotgun wounds.

    Essex Police admitted that Miss Chambers had complained to them numerous times about Mr Oakes over the past two years and that the force had been in repeated contact with the family.

    The case was referred yesterday to the Independent Police Complaints Commission which will decide whether to investigate. The force also faced questions about the two hours police spent negotiating with Mr Oakes after being called to the house at 3am.

    Neighbours said that officers were speaking through the letterbox and did not enter until gunshots were heard at 5am. Police confirmed that firearms

    officers attended but did not fire any shots.

    Friends of Miss Chambers said she had separated from Mr Oakes recently and was in a custody dispute which was due to be heard at Chelmsford county court yesterday.

    Mr Oakes’s father, Peter, 79, said he had been worried his son might “do something silly” because he was so upset about not being able to see his daughter. Mr Oakes added: “David came round here three weeks ago and he was crying his eyes out. I told him not to do anything stupid. I was worried he would.

    “He has a tendency to be violent and has been in trouble before.”

    Stuart Flitt, 26, a half brother of Chelsea, said Miss Chambers had spoken to police as recently as last Thursday.

    He said: “She was making statements to the police all week. She gave police over 100 text messages but they never took her seriously.

    “I had been staying round there for her safety. I was with her just last night at 11pm. It’s all too hard to take in: Chrissie was like a mother to me.”

    A close friend, who gave her name as Tara, added: “The police said to her ‘we cannot do anything until something happens to you’. This should not have happened. The police were in the wrong and they knew about this weeks ago.”

    Donna Garrod, 20, a friend of Miss Chambers, said the dead woman had been the victim of numerous beatings from Mr Oakes during their “on-off” relationship. She claimed that police had been called in the past two weeks after Mr Oakes allegedly threatened her.

    Miss Garrod added: “They had rowed and he warned Chrissy that he was ready to hurt their daughter.”

    Outside the home yesterday, residents berated officers guarding the property. One man was led away after shouting at police: “You let this happen, you let this happen.”

    Assistant Chief Constable Gary Beautridge, of Essex Police, said: “There have been a number of incidents where contact between the man in custody and Chrissie Chambers have been referred to Essex Police over the course of the last two years.

    “If there are any lessons to be learned we will learn them, but it is too early to say we have done things in the wrong way.”

    Too early to say? Bullshit. They handled this like they handle most DV cases, they do nothing, it escalates, the woman lives in terror for months/years. Some get away, others like Chrissie are not so lucky. They could have stopped it. He broke the bindover by sending the threatening text messages, they could have re-arrested him.


  12. jilla

    I hope there’s going to be a hew and cry, and an enquiry. This is abysmal by any standards, let along a leading, western nation. Shame shame shame.


  13. FAB Libber aka Dave the Squirrel Post author

    Excellent vid:

    Maids protest as Strauss Kahn arrives at New York court

    Members of the hotel housekeepers’ union demonstrate outside New York City Criminal Court as the accused former head of the International Monetary Fund Dominique Strauss Kahn arrives for his arraignment on charges of sexual assault.


    Link thanks to Mary via FaceButt.


  14. FAB Libber aka Dave the Squirrel Post author

    Barbified Hentai perhaps?
    What evs. The sexualised objectification is off the scale. I am sick of this crap ‘sneaking’ through just because it does not show ‘a sexual act’, yet it is highly sexualised in nature. Loopholeism.

    As for Green Peace, I guess they are trying to catch up with PETA, famed for their unethical treatment of female humans to *somehow* justify the ethical treatment of animals? All it shows is that female humans are lower in the pecking order than other animal species. Whilst I might be sympathetic to the causes, I will not support any cause that exploits/objectifies/degrades human females for their cause.


  15. cherryblossomlife

    Got this as a reply. 7/10 not bad

    Ms Sherwood [me pseudonym 🙂 . ]

    Thank you for your email.

    The concerns you raise are, I am sure, echoed by many others.

    Essex Police do take allegations of domestic violence, threats and
    intimidation seriously. The tragedy that has occurred saddens us all.

    A full investigation of events leading up to the deaths will be
    conducted by the Independent Police Complaints Commission to see if
    these deaths could have been prevented. This will also consider if there
    are any lessons to be learnt or any blame apportioned.


    Ian Bygrave
    Professional Standards Departmen


  16. jilla

    Cripes yes, I guess we’d be doing it too, anything that would help them survive. Perhaps the Sluts could get involved here, instead of their waste of space “activism”.

    Older women know this as “binding”. It was done to US for different reasons, but just another example of the tortures perpetrated on women by the patriarchy, or to survive the patriarchy. Right after childbirth your breasts were bound with rounds and rounds of wide bands of canvas type cloth that did not give. It was pulled tighter and tighter as they brought it round and round your chest. It stopped the milk coming down, and caused incredible pain, as your breasts will be engorged with clostrium and milk for the baby. The “backed up” ducts which often became infected, and the whole purple-black bruising of the breasts might be the cause of so much ductal carcinoma, today.

    It wouldn’t do for women in late ’40s and ’50s North America to naturally feed their babies.

    Apologies for the derail. But it really is not.


  17. FAB Libber aka Dave the Squirrel Post author

    Rahelle, that is tragic, I had not heard of the practise before.

    Apart from being historically rooted in Cameroonian culture, breast ironing is used to avoid sexual contact between young girls and boys. By altering girls’ bodies to disguise a visable sign of emerging sexuality, mothers try to make sure that their girls remain virginal and pure, and avoid becoming visibly fertile women — and potential mothers.

    Mothers are not completely unjustified in their fears. Early sexual encounters can lead these young teenagers to unwanted pregnancies, unsafe abortions, possible rapes or the transmission of sexual diseases. Burning girls’ emerging breasts to many mothers seems a far better option. It is a measure born out of love and care for their daughters, they argue.
    “When the breasts of a young girl start growing, any man can come to her and try to have sex with her. So, in order to help the girls continue school, we have to do breast ironing,” she says.

    The only solution really is to have female-only living spaces, away from males. Of course, males could stop raping, but past performance makes that seem unlikely.
    Do the Cameroon M2Ts fetishize this practice of girlhood?


  18. FAB Libber aka Dave the Squirrel Post author

    Cherryblossomlife’s letter was in response to the police mishandling of the murder of Christine Chambers and her daughter. See my comments above, starting:

    There is an email address to contact the Essex Police on this page:
    All forces say they take domestic violence seriously, but their actions (or inactions) seem quite the opposite.


  19. FAB Libber aka Dave the Squirrel Post author

    Look how differently the meeja and courts treat a woman on a murder charge. I note that there was no 6 shrinks examining her like for Arthur Freeman see here and here, incl comments.

    Woman killed her dad believing he had abused her daughter

    A WOMAN in her late 20s stabbed her father to death with a bayonet from an AK47 assault rifle because she believed he had sexually abused her daughter, a court heard yesterday.

    Prosecutor Geoff Horgan, SC, said the abuse allegation could not be verified, although it was accepted the killer, a heavy drug taker with paranoia, believed it.

    Mr Horgan said the woman, who cannot be named, told a friend she wanted “revenge on her father”. She did not attempt to hide what happened.

    Mr Horgan told the pre-sentence plea hearing the woman had said her five-year-old daughter had told her of alleged abuse in explicit terms “Poppy” had used.

    “The Crown makes no comment as to the accuracy or otherwise of the belief,” Mr Horgan said.

    “It does accept that on the evidence that belief was genuinely held by the prisoner, erroneous though it might have been.

    “Apart from the prisoner’s assertions, and the reported statements of (her daughter), he (the murdered man) appears from the evidence to have had a normal, healthy relationship with his granddaughter.”

    The woman, from country Victoria, pleaded guilty to the murder of her father, 62, at her home in July 2009.

    She stabbed him twice in the chest and five times in the back with the bayonet.

    Mr Horgan said the murder was premeditated because the woman bought the AK47 bayonet from an army disposals store, with black gloves and a balaclava.

    Defence barrister Peter Chadwick, SC, the woman suffered a range of health problems and was addicted to amphetamines.

    After her arrest she became “animalistic”, growling and snarling, and setting up booby traps in her prison room.

    Justice Elizabeth Curtain will sentence the woman on June 21.



  20. Sargasso Sea

    She triggered: ‘explicit terms “Poppy” had used.’

    She didn’t “believe” her daughter, she knew.

    The “normal, healthy” perv is dead for the best reason of all.


  21. FAB Libber aka Dave the Squirrel Post author

    I just had a thought, the fact that she believed her daughter so readily (although it sounds convincing on its own) was that she herself had probably been molested by him as a child. That might also account for some of the mental health problems, and probably the drug use.
    But again I raise, how come no team of shrinks to testify on her behalf – the mental health issues are there, more obvious than in Arthur Freeman’s case (which was motivated by custody issues, then faking mental health for the trial).


  22. FAB Libber aka Dave the Squirrel Post author

    It happened in 2009. Apparently he lived with them (ample opportunity for CSA)

    Woman quizzed after man stabbed to death
    Mex Cooper
    July 29, 2009

    A 25-year-old woman is being questioned by police after a 62-year-old man was stabbed to death in Gippsland last night.

    A relative of the man discovered his body about 10.30pm when she went to his McKindlay Street home in Drouin.

    He had been stabbed a number of times.

    The woman being quizzed by police lived at the house with the man.

    A Victoria Police spokeswoman said she was unable to confirm if the pair knew each other and whether or not they were related.

    The woman went to Warragul police station about 4.30am and is being questioned in relation to the killing.

    And charged quickly too:

    Woman, 25, charged with Drouin murder
    July 31, 2009

    Police have charged a 25-year-old Drouin woman with murder following the discovery of a man’s body in south-east Victoria on Tuesday night.

    A relative found the 62-year-old man fatally stabbed at a home in McKindlay Street, Drouin at about 10.30pm.

    The woman has been remanded to appear in the Melbourne Magistrates’ Court on Monday.



  23. jilla

    Exactly what I thought re the mother killing her father: he had done the same to her. Women will stumble along trying to survive after a childhood like that, even to selling themselves, but they will not abide that being done to their daughters.

    Re the “breast ironing” I believe it’s not burning that’s done. The women are using the worrd ironing to mean pressing them flat, as I described happened to mothers in the 1950s, and is done with cloth wound tightly over the breasts. I think their using the word “ironing” is a language mistake. But correct me if I’m wrong.


  24. FAB Libber aka Dave the Squirrel Post author

    Hiya twanzphobic fans!
    My internutz silence over the last few days was due to hardware failure (router/modem), and not due to having any twanzphobic second thoughts or anything. Rest assured, normal twanzphobic blogging will resume shortly! 😛


  25. FAB Libber aka Dave the Squirrel Post author

    Oh fucking diddums Strauss-Khan… HE complained that he was handcuffed at his arrest, and also tried to claim diplomatic immunity (which is probably why he thought he could imprison and rape the maid in the first place).


  26. Sargasso Sea

    Waaaaah! 😥 Da pohweece yewz hancups on mwe! Waaaaaah! 😥 But Iz speshulz manz! Waaaaaah! 😥

    Pfft. Rot in hell, asshole. 😛


  27. KatieS

    OK, jilla said to come over here, so hi! I always have trouble logging in to this site, so often give up. I think this is the right section for something else that was discussed on GenderTrender’s blog.

    The post had some discussion of Paula Caplan. She has written on her blog at Psychology Today about two issues for the diagnostic manual for psychiatrists that are up to be included in it. One is the Parental Alienation Syndrome and the other is Gender Dysphoria of Childhood. I’m glad that the deadline has been extended till July 15th. I think that these are two areas that radfems understand very well and some of us have had experiences with, or know people who have. We are articulate and would add a lot to the comments. Read them and see what you think. I noticed some other interesting links there for when I have time.

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/science-isnt-golden/201106/psychiatric-diagnosis-arbiters-decide-how-boys-vs-girls-should-act-a (about diagnosing children with “gender identity issues”)

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/science-isnt-golden/201106/parental-alienation-syndrome-another-alarming-dsm-5-proposal (This one would do great harm to children being raped by their fathers and to the mothers when they report the fathers. It’s horrendous)



  28. FAB Libber aka Dave the Squirrel Post author

    Hi Katie, thanks for the links.
    The only reason your comment went into mod this time was due to the number of links (gets held for mod).
    You only have to be logged into WP (and have a previously approved comment) and subsequent comments will go through (as long as they don’t have too many links).


  29. jilla

    Hi Katie. Happy to see you found your way here. Welcome.

    Have you drafted a complaint? I’m not sure exactly what would be effective. I’d appreciate any suggestions.


  30. KatieS

    Jilla, I hope to do it sometime this week. I’ll make a list of points after re-reading the Psych Today posts. Perhaps we can brainstorm what each of us thinks related to the points and other points anyone sees.

    Thanks, Fab Libber. I did see that it went through the second time, but I submitted it again after posting over on GenderTrender that it wasn’t working. Good to know about the links/mod.


  31. jilla

    Yah Katie. I’m not good at that, but I could rearrange what you said well enough to not look like I copied it. OR, depending on what they demand for signatures, we could all sign yours.

    I’ll be Natasha Grey.


  32. KatieS

    Ok, this is a summary of points from the posting to help clarify some of the issues. Suggestions about writing comments in another post as this is long enough. I hope the html code is not too screwy. I’m not good at it.

    Background: This is from Paula Caplan, PhD’s blog at Psychology today discussing a proposed diagnosis for the diagnostic manual of the American Psychiatric Assn. (DSM-5). In the U.S., this is the official manual that determines if a person has a mental illness and what the criteria are. It’s just like the manual your doctor uses and has codes for payment from insurance companies, is used in court, etc. It’s the official word. Everything on here in italics is quoted from Paula’s blog. The bolding is mine.


    The Mental Illness: Parental Alienation Syndrome. This is a medical-sounding term for nothing more than “She’s a vengeful woman who’s trying to make her children tell horrific lies about their father.”

    A. If you are an individual who has been sexually abused as a child, or a mother whose child was sexually abused, the following are the points you may wish to discuss from personal experience: If you know of anyone who had a court case where these things happened, you should definitely be heard.

    When applied to a parent in a case involving an allegation of child sexual abuse, it is nearly always applied to a woman whose child is allegedly being molested by the father. Despite not yet being in the DSM, PAS has in some courts proven an astonishingly effective vehicle for deflecting the focus from the abuser and simply claiming that the woman must be lying, and coaching her children to lie, because she has the alleged mental illness of PAS. [1] The claim is that without cause, she wants to turn the children against their father.

    Virtually everything that is sometimes a sign that a child is being molested – such as fearfulness when it is time for a visit with the abuser or vaginal bleeding or infection in a 2-year-old – is instead interpreted as further “proof” that the mother has PAS.

    B. Some factual information that might prove useful if you have a legal, social work, science, etc. background and want to argue that as a professional. You should also consider arguing points under A if you have had clients, say at a Woman’s Shelter with related experience.

    [Richard] Gardner [who invented PAS] claimed that many reports of [child sexual abuse] in the context of divorce cases were false allegations.

    In this connection, it is important to note that Bala and Schuman (1999) found that only 1.3% of mothers’ allegations of abuse by their children’s fathers were deemed by civil court judges to be intentionally false, in contrast to 21% of cases in which fathers had made such allegations against mothers. And Meier (2009) reports after reviewing the research that it is a mistaken belief that mothers’ allegations in child custody proceedings that fathers have sexually abused their children are usually false. [2]

    Gardner’s recommendations:

    (1) he recommends joint interviews with an accused father and child in which the father directly confronts the child about the allegation,

    (2) he interprets a child’s overt expression of fear of possible retaliation by the father as evidence of the child’s embarrassment about lying rather than as possibly a valid fear of a truthtelling child whose father is abusive.

    C. Major Organizations that have discredited the PAS. Again, professionals might find this useful in constructing a response. According to Paula, *The construct of PAS is unscientific, composed of a group of general symptoms with no empirical basis….

    Major professional bodies, including the American Psychological Association, have discredited PAS on the grounds that it is misused in domestic violence cases and that there is no scientific evidence of such a “syndrome.”

    The more recent APA Online document Issues and Dilemmas in Family Violence (http://www.apa.org/pi/essues.html), particularly Issue 5, describes the tendency of family courts to miminize a context of violence, falsely accusing the mother of alienation and granting custody to the father in spite of his history of violence.

    The National Council on Juvenile and Family Court Judges’ 2006 manual states that “parental alienation syndrome or PAS has been discredited by the scientific community” and “should therefore be ruled inadmissible” (p. 19).

    A number of prominent figures, including Dr. Paul J. Fink, past president of the American Psychiatric Association and president of the Leadership Council on Mental Health, Justice, and the Media, and Professor Jon R. Conte of the University of Washington Social Welfare Doctoral Faculty have also discredited PAS and its lack of scientific basis (see Bruch, 2001).

    Because of the use of PAS as a tactic by many CSA perpetrators to influence decision makers and the court system, abused children have been placed in the hands of their abusers (Childress, 2006). It is estimated that “over 58,000 children a year are ordered into unsupervised contact with physically or sexually abusive parents following divorce in the United States” (http://www.leadershipcouncil.org/1/pas/1.html) and that PAS was used in a large number of these cases. [2]

    Conclusion: At the end of her post she discusses the politics of the process to include this, to leave it out, or to further study it. She knows this process and has reason for alarm. Although the chairpeople are sounding like they will leave it out, this is suspect. In and of itself, having “no scientific evidence” of a disorder does not automatically rule out its inclusion. For years homosexuality was included as a mental illness, with no evidence, until finally they took it out after a long battle. Here’s what she has to say:
    The DSM-5 editors could at any time have already struck PAS from their planned additions but have so far chosen not to.

    . . .coming from the Chair of the DSM-5 Task Force and the DSM-5’s Public Representative, in which they said that the Task Force is “not currently recommending the inclusion of Parental Alienation Syndrome.” Does that mean the label definitely will not go in DSM-5? It does not. Why do I say this? Because (1) the whole history of earlier DSM editions includes many instances of Task Force heads and members making assertions that turn out to be untrue; and (2) some have suggested that the authors of the letter I received on June 9 do not rule out inclusion of some similar or identical but differently-titled category, such as Parental Alienation Disorder rather than Syndrome.

    If this alarms you, and especially if PAS has been used against you, please consider going to dsm5.org before their . . .cutoff date for input from the public arrives, and send them your concerns. Please urge everyone else you can think of to do the same. The DSM-5 authors will do themselves and the manual’s reputation no favors if they include PAS, and they need to hear from people whom the label has harmed.


  33. KatieS

    It’s really long, I know, but I tried to break it down into points. Those are bolded and labeled A, B, C, and are my own way of organizing. I think there may be various types of comments written. One type would be personal experience, another would be professional experience, including volunteering at a woman’s shelter.

    I. If you are writing personal comments, I don’t think your comments need to be ultra-polished. You are writing as a member of the public. I’d say, just three elements 1. What happened to you or perhaps your sister, family member, etc.. 2. The problems you see with the PAS diagnosis relative to what happened to you. and 3. Ask them to not include it. [pay most attention to the material under A]

    II. If you are writing from having worked with women in a helping role, like a women’s shelter, you can just tell their stories with these three elements.

    III. If you are in a professional role in the legal system, social work, science, etc. paying attention to B. would help you make a case, depending on your profession. I also like C. since these other powerful organizations have come out against it.

    Of course, anyone could use any of these elements, these are just my thoughts. I’ll look at the other post soon.


  34. KatieS

    Does anyone know where I can find mainstream statistics on child sexual abuse, like from the NIH, NIMH, APA, etc? I want them for the DSM-5 commenting project described above. Here’s what I’m looking for especially:

    How many children are molested by a parent, percentage? Actual numbers? By a mother? By a father?

    I know that the numbers are high, but I want to be able to quote a source. I know that the difference between mothers and fathers will also be large, but again, I want a credible source. Also, if far more women have already been prosecuted than men using “parental alienation syndrome” than men, it may demonstrate that this should not be given an official status as a diagnosis.

    I just spent a few hours trying to find this, but no luck. I thought someone on here might know.



  35. jilla

    Katie I do not know, and would be doing what you did. However, it occurs to me Paula Caplan might have some idea. Her e-mail is on her site. HER website. Just Google. I think she’d at least have an idea where to look.


  36. Sargasso Sea

    It is difficult to find current mainstream data for almost anything that isn’t evo-psych/MRA crap because so much of the funding for *unbiased* government funded research has been nonexistent since, well, about 2000.

    That’s why you are only finding 1990s stuff. If you do find such a source, PLEASE let us know!


  37. KatieS

    Thanks SSea. That explains it! I will let you know if I find it.

    I figured out I should look at Wikipedia (duh, I use it all the time, checking the sources cited, of course.) It had a lot of information that I’m still looking through. However I did find this gem:


    “Richard Gardner – including twenty-three peer-reviewed articles and fifty legal decisions he cited in support of his claim that PAS is scientifically valid and legally admissible – finding that these materials support neither PAS’s existence, nor its legal admissibility. Finally, the article examines the policy issues raised by PAS’s admissibility through an analysis of PAS’s roots in Gardner’s theory of human sexuality, a theory that views adult-child sexual contact as benign and beneficial to the reproduction of the species. HOLY MOLY! This guy is evil.

    If you want to find out more, look at Wikipedia, for Parental Alienation Syndrome and Richard A. Gardner. On his page is a denial of that theory, but it is not really a denial from what I can see. He killed himself in 2003 because of a painful incurable disease. Ok, this is somewhat off topic, but it made me furious and I had to let everyone know. More later.


  38. KatieS

    ETA: If you click on the link in the above post (ssrn.com etc) you can download the pdf of the paper for free. It gives an account of Gardners’ theories about pedophilia.
    “As a political advocate, Gardner lobbied to abolish mandated reporting of child abuse, to abolish immunity for reporters of child abuse, and for the creation of federally funded programs to assist individuals claiming to be falsely accused.”

    And somehow a psychological disorder that he constructed got on the list for the diagnostic manual? It defies all reason.

    Two groups appear to be in favor of this are the pedophiles and the MRA’s.


  39. jilla

    Katie I bet Paula would love to know that, or discuss this with you. She is here: Tell her Jilla sent you. She will be overjoyed someone is working on this.

    [ED: email address removed]

    Wow you get the Wonder Woman award for June for this amazing work. Don’t you agree SarsS?

    I would say this is definitely NOT off topic. Great work Katie.


  40. KatieS

    Thanks, Jilla. I also asked her about statistics.

    I also found out that it is easy to post comments on the DSM-5 website. You do have to register with your real name, and email address. I dunno about “Natasha Grey” though 😉 I do suggest that anyone who does have an affiliation that they can use should do so. I don’t but, I’m sure it would carry more weight if someone works in the legal system, social work, etc. Once you do that you can comment on any number of them. I haven’t gotten to the gender dysphoria in children diagnosis yet, but I think that also relevant, and maybe a few others. I did a lot of clicking around and reading stuff on the site. Very educational 😦

    So, everyone who finds this a good idea, begin to think about that part. Also, I’m wondering if it is best not to post a direct link since if everyone comes from this website, it might not be as cool as if you just start from your own homepage. If they are checking where the traffic comes from, it might be less influential. kwim? Once I come up with a few things people might say, I’ll post the directions to the link with it, to keep it neat and tidy.


  41. jilla

    I am paying attention Katie. You’re really doing valuable work. I agree with it, having lived some thing like this myself. No woman especially with children gets out of a marriage without deep, deep abuse, often perpetrated upon the children to get even with her for daring to fight back.


  42. KatieS

    Ok, after looking over all the materials linked above and more, I came up with a response. It is my best reasoning on what I read. (like I was back in college writing a term paper, whew!) There are also other concerns about the way in which this theory has been misused. Individuals can address these from their own point of view given the information already posted. This could be personal stories or talking from experience with work in a woman’s shelter, counseling center, legal aid organization, etc. However, I looked at the theory itself and the glaring thing was that it did not make sense to me. I feel that this is a huge weak point that in that will hurt the credibility of the DSM-5. Individuals could use this as is, but modifying it in ways that make sense to you would be best.

    To Whom It May Concern:

    Parental Alienation Syndrome should not be added to the diagnoses for the DSM-5. While parental alienation can and does occur, it is potentially related to a whole host of factors, some of them developmental, as often happens in the teen years; some of them due to long-standing family dynamics; sometimes as an emotional reaction by the child to the confusion and stresses of divorce; and sometimes as a reaction to emotional, physical, or sexual abuse of a child. It is also true that parental alienation can be caused by one parent turning the child against the other parent during or after a divorce. There can be other factors in parental alienation as well, related to both individual disorders and family dynamics. Most people can think of one or more non-divorced families where children do not speak to parents for years, including middle-aged children children who are estranged from one or both parents who are alienated from a parent even on the parent’s deathbed. Such is the nature of human and family interaction.

    A theory has been proposed by Gardner that may describe one very specific way in which parental alienation can occur. There are three questions to ask. First, is there a syndrome associated with these behaviors? Second, can a theory describe these accurately enough that this syndrome may be studied and such studies provide clear support for such a syndrome? Third, are there studies that are valid and reliable that provide substantial evidence for the theory, i.e., is the research body robust?

    To address the first question: is there a real syndrome associated with parental alienation during divorce, particularly divorce trials that are adversarial and include custody battles? How does one parse out factors like heightened emotional reactivity during a divorce, along with acrimony on the part of one or both parents which would intensify the many kinds of parental alienation possible? Certainly the PAS theory does not do this, weakening evidence of a syndrome. Second, given this issue, there is not a theory that accurately describes a syndrome. Third, the validity and reliability of the existing studies is weak, which is not surprising, given the fuzzy boundaries of parental alienation that provide a foundation for the theory. [For a review of the research, see, for instance, Meier, J. S. (2009, January). Parental Alienation Syndrome and parental alienation: Research reviews. National Online Resource Center on Violence Against Women, 1-17.]


    (your name, title, if appropriate)


  43. KatieS

    Where to post your comment. While you could use this in a letter or email, you can also post it online at dsm dot org. Then go to the tab that says “Proposed revisions” then click on “Conditions proposed by outside sources” At the bottom you will see a place to post your comments, but you must first log in. I’m recommending that you go from your home page of your browser rather than this blog page, because otherwise it might read as spam.

    Next up, and much simpler for me to put together will be the stuff to comment on gender dysphoria in children. Once you register you can comment on both.


  44. KatieS

    oops, thats dsm5 dot org. Please proofread and correct any errors you find. I saw at least one after I posted it 😦


  45. jilla

    We could just give initials and home area, and say we do not wish to sign with any further identifying information because we have to protect our children. They come first. (cue music).


  46. KatieS

    Thank you, FabLibber! Yes, Jilla, I think everyone should do what they think they feel is right for them and their situation. Thanks for bringing that up. I’m very sorry to hear that you have had to deal with this personally. I did not deal with anything so extreme with my divorce and that was bad enough. I really feel for the children and women who have had things like this happen and I have known some.


  47. survivorthriver

    Dr. Stuart Greenberg, the forensic psychologist guru, has been not only discredited, but proven to have built his entire career on hypocrisy and lies. This story in Seattle Times today illustrates how this “professional” manipulated courts to deny custody to one mother who fought back, wore a wire to her meeting with him, and got his lies “outted”. FINALLY! How many more “PAS” promoters use these dirty tactics, or were influenced by this prestigious liar? His career ended in scandal, but how many families and children were hurt by his pathological lying? Greenberg suicided in a small town outside Seattle after being discovered, but only after many decades of vile destruction.


    “For a quarter century Greenberg testified as an expert in forensic psychology, an inscrutable field with immense power. Purporting to offer insight into the human condition, he evaluated more than 2,000 children, teenagers and adults. His word could determine which parent received custody of a child, or whether a jury believed a claim of sexual assault, or what damages might be awarded for emotional distress.:”

    HERE IS MORE TOTAL BULLSHIT CAUSED BY THIS CRETIN whose watershed crime ultimately that got him was sex crimes against women:

    “Before Greenberg died, some parents in child-custody matters hesitated to criticize his evaluations, fearing any complaint might cost them their children. But since his death, parents have come forward, with women describing bullying tactics, saying he demanded intimate details about their sex lives, and dared them not to answer.

    Once the circumstances of Greenberg’s downfall became public, courts agreed to take a second look at some of his more recent cases.

    In one of them, Greenberg had recommended joint custody in a case where the father had been convicted of beating the mother. Drenched in blood, she had gone to the emergency room and received 15 stitches in her head.

    Greenberg branded the mother, a Microsoft employee, as emotionally unstable, saying she complained too much of the abuse she had suffered.”

    “I was beaten by my husband, and I was beaten up by the system,” the woman told The Times. “I was accused of being crazy for not liking being beaten.”

    After Greenberg’s arrest for voyeurism, the woman’s lawyer asked to have Greenberg’s report tossed out. A King County judge agreed. A new evaluator was appointed — and came to a very different conclusion.

    Under the new parenting agreement, the mother is in charge.


  48. survivorthriver

    Oops, last word in last sentence in my comment (destruction) belonged way up next to the word vile at the end of the first paragraph. Survivorthriver aka charly the angleworm.


  49. survivorthriver

    Thank you Dave! :))

    I also found this mother lode of PAS de-bunking resources at:


    There are way more Richard Gardners, KatieS, their collective creepinesses outted by a very well documented listing by a battered mother on her wordpress above.

    Goddess, I feel a hot stream of sass rising this morning over all this misogynistic garbage.
    Survivorthriver aka Charly the Angleworm


  50. survivorthriver

    Hey Dave the Squirrel, if this is a new post material, could you copy over this link and info over there? Damned Big Pharma Drug Cartel bible (dsm 5)

    The public has until July 15th to lodge comments about the PAS inclusion in DSM-5 at this link:

    I testified as a former state licensed foster mother and credited/copied this blog:
    PAS: Mad science?

    ​Slate published an excellent story this week on the battle over whether to include the theory of “Parental Alienation Syndrome” in the next edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Like almost every other informed and disinterested observer who has assessed the validity of PAS, Slate senior editor Dahlia Lithwick takes a very dim view of the theory.

    She also gracefully articulates the many reasons that the theory, as currently used as “scientific evidence” in family courts across the country, is pernicious. In a March cover story, SF Weekly described how PAS — and its virtually identical variant, “Parental Alienation” or PA — can be used by abusive fathers to win custody of children from protective mothers.

    The theory of Parental Alienation, a term coined by the late pedophilia apologist Richard Gardner, posits that mothers maliciously brainwash their children to hold delusions of sexual abuse at the hands of an estranged father. As described by its adherents, PAS is probably the only supposed psychiatric condition that arises solely in the context of divorce proceedings, one of many reasons that reputable scientific and medical organizations such as the American Medical Association don’t recognize it.

    As Lithwick puts it:

    … no hypothesis so rooted in gender bias should be credited by medical science. And because evidence of PAS is so frequently offered to counter maternal allegations of abuse, the experts testifying about PAS can be aiding and abetting a system that takes children from abused mothers and hands them right back to abusive fathers. Once again, this doesn’t mean that some parents don’t alienate their children in a divorce. It means that PAS is now used to discredit women whenever they claim abuse.

    Of course, despite its tenuous scientific credentials, PAS has become the dominant psychological paradigm of the family-court system. The word “syndrome” is often deliberately omitted so that litigants arguing that the condition exists can avoid the unsavory connotations of the theory’s origins, and most particularly its founder, Gardner, who argued that “pedophilia has been considered the norm by the vast majority of individuals in the history of the world.”
    Lithwick’s conclusion: “While nobody was looking, a mythical legal argument known as parental alienation may have already taken over family courts.”


  51. KatieS

    Great posts of this horrifying information SurvivorThriver! It fills in many blanks about what is happening now, and that this craziness has gotten a toehold into the DSM-5 manual. One would think it hasn’t a chance, but obviously it is not science, but political advantage of the patriarchy that will protect those who are pedophiles. Yes, I urge everyone who hasn’t yet done so to go to the DSM-5 site and register an objection to this. Shining the light of day on it, and them knowing that this is happening might make a difference.


  52. FAB Libber aka Dave the Squirrel Post author

    I don’t know why “we” are surpised that all this shit (including GID, rape compulsions, PAS etc) get into the DSM – after all, patriarchy has a long history of using shrinks for the patriarchical agenda … just ask Freud and all his penis-envy bullshit.

    I would not want a penis even if it came with a million dollar gift.
    Besides, it seems that having a penis tends to make one stupid and self-absorbed. I can do without those side effects, thanks.


  53. jilla

    This is for KatieS.

    Don’t know if she’s here regularly, or if her recent visit was a one-of:

    Our mutual friend thanks you for the PAS posts. (I assume it was you?). She was overwhelmed and really knocked back by the excellence of the comments and how you all just “swamped” (her word) the other side. She felt relieved by you all just taking it on, because it took some of the pressure off her. I don’t know if you’ve looked at her line-up but she is prolific on subjects that are our concerns.

    She asked me to please tell you she just had tears in her eyes reading some of your comments, all the pain you’ve been through. She said many times when she’s testified for you (plural you) the other side has used against YOU that she is a feminist.

    Drop by she says.


  54. KatieS

    Hey, Jilla. Some comments were mine, but Charley the Angleworm (like Dave Squirrel, I love it! aka Survivor) went even further and found some great (horrible) stuff on that. I have read some of her stuff and found it excellent. I’ll check out her site. Thanks.

    I’m somewhat sporadic, lately have checked a number of these blogs and posted a fair amount for me, but can’t do what I see some people doing, so many posts at so many blogs. I’m new at this, so maybe I’ll get quicker over time. I’m assuming you are also Jill/Twisty, but may be wrong. yes? no? I’ve posted a bit there.


  55. jilla

    Hi Katie. No I’m not Twi*sty. We have polar opposite points of view of the source of women’s oppression.

    I’ve got time Katie, so I do read and post a fair bit. It’s not mandatory for anyone to do that, but often useful to check your WP account so you can keep in touch.

    Thanks for responding to my requests for posts there, and coming over to say hi here. xxxooo


  56. jilla

    Hi Survivor. Double-vez on the thanks to you (read above post). She was thrilled that you took the time, and knocked back by the expertise. Sadly achieved though, and she knows it.


  57. KatieS

    Obviously, I didn’t read enough of her blog to pick up on that yet, either the pro-trans or the source of women’s oppression, there just seemed to be some humor stuff there and a dislike of ellipses. Sorry if I offended you, Jilla.

    I’m going to figure out how to check my WP account, now. . . 😉 I didn’t know I had one unless it’s the email account I used to sign up with wordpress.


  58. jilla

    Hey Katie you didn’t offend me at all! I’m just trying to be quick so sorry if that came across as terse. It’s late and I still have some work to do. 🙂


  59. myrtle

    Katie and Survivor sorry link above doesn’t get us where we want to go. Here’s something sans link — note the name for future ref. And do also note that last para. xxxooo

    Dr. Chris O’Sullivan, a psychologist at Bucknell University in Lewisburg, Pennsylvania, studied 24 incidents of gang rape. Two were committed by male students in residence halls, nine by athletes, and 13 by fraternities. The men involved seemed to think that what they were doing was okay, most often because they regarded the women as promiscuous.

    In O’Sullivan’s sample, the women were distinguished in the rapists’ minds from the women they dated in terms of respectability. One man involved in a gang rape told O’Sullivan that what happened to the woman was “not rape” because she had dated two of the men involved previously and had hurt the men’s feelings by having sex with each of them.

    Researchers have found that as a gang rape proceeds, that is, as each successive man takes his turn, the woman is viewed increasingly as a “whore” who deserves to be raped — even though, by their own words, the men do not consider what they are doing to be rape.

    Among O’Sullivan’s sample, the men typically formed a tight male group. She said, “The men tend to have grown up together. They have gone off to college together and maintained childhood friendships through adolescence and young adulthood.”

    She found that more traditional fraternities and more traditional men were more likely to commit gang rape. “They stand when women enter. They buy into rigid sex roles. They are likely to believe you treat good women nicely and you can do anything to bad women.”
    – Encyclopedia of Violence by Margaret DiCanio


  60. myrtle

    Well we can see where this Oz murder trial is going to go. Next, we will hear how he was such a sweet good boy who always helped his mom/nan and she was known to go out drinking every Friday with some odd-looking women.


  61. FAB Libber / Dave the Squirrel Post author

    They are likely to believe you treat good women nicely and you can do anything to bad women.
    This seems to be the crux of it. However, it is a subjective assessment, the victim has no idea where she is on THEIR respectability-whore scale.


  62. myrtle

    And as she points out, the more rape her, the more violent the rapes become because she’s more a whore than when it started.

    Perfect example of how men make the rules to suit themselves and how circular and inescapable the rules are.


  63. KatieS

    Thanks, jilla now myrtle :). This reminded me of this story that I recently found, about Liz Seccuro who, as a very naive 17-year-old only a couple of months into college was gang raped at a fraternity party and after 25 years was able to bring one of the rapists to justice. He did not get long in jail, but it’s an amazing story. It sounds as though she is still working on finding out who else was involved. If you read the review of her book and the first comment it gives a quick synopsis.


    Reading the material you posted and your comments helped me better understand how this happens. It is really shocking how brutal “normal” men are when you consider this.


  64. myrtle

    But women do know where they are in this Fab. Christian right wing women know, they must be the good woman, and give their sexuality to men to own, outright. Not even have it for themselves. It’s when they even show some joy in THEIR own sexuality, that they start to fall into the rape pile.

    Katie, I got that bit I posted from P. and she said the author is someone we should study.


  65. myrtle

    Honestly Katie I don’t know if I have the guts to read that. It’s the kind of thing I meter out in dribs and drabs, so I can survive myself. Today I’m listening to Gail Dines, and Dirt. Whew.


  66. myrtle

    makes me mad when women have to pay to get this stuff, women who can barely afford to feed and clothe their kids, or afford decent accommodation and their medication when they are olde. What, do they think we’re all MtTs or something, with men’s wages and benefits? All we get is the f(#**ing abstract.

    Outcomes of Custody and Visitation Petitions When Fathers Are Restrained by Protection Orders
    The Case of the New York Family Courts

    Leora N. Rosen
    National Institute of Justice

    Chris S. O’Sullivan
    Safe Horizon


    A random sample of custody and visitation petitions filed in New York City Family Courts in 1995 was used to examine outcomes of mothers’ Order of Protection (OP) Petitions in relation to parents’ custody and visitation petitions. Fathers restrained by OPs were more likely to secure visitation orders (64%) than not. In contrast, 80.8% of fathers’ custody petitions were dismissed when they were restrained by OPs. Fathers’ custody petitions were most likely to be ordered when mothers’ OP petitions were withdrawn. Mothers were most likely to secure custody when their OP petitions were ordered or withdrawn. Courts rarely denied petitions. Those that did not result in court orders were either withdrawn by the petitioner or dismissed by the court (most likely because of failure of the petitioner to appear in court). This pattern has negative implications for battered women who may be vulnerable to pressure or threats from abusive expartners.

    Articles citing this article

    “Paper Abuse”: When All Else Fails, Batterers Use Procedural
    The Mothering Perceptions of Women Abused by Their Partner Violence Against Women April 1, 2011 17: 457-479

    Excusable Deficiency: Staff Perceptions of Mothering at Shelters for Abused Women Violence Against Women November 1, 2010 16: 1224-1241

    The Mothering of Women Abused by Their Partner: An Outcome Evaluation of a Group Intervention Research on Social Work Practice July 1, 2010 20: 391-402

    Fathers’ Rights Groups: Demographic Correlates and Impact on Custody Policy Violence Against Women May 1, 2009 15: 513-531

    Patriarchy Reasserted: Fathers’ Rights and Anti-VAWA Activism Feminist Criminology April 1, 2008 3: 121-144

    Implacably Hostile or Appropriately Protective?: Women Managing Child Contact in the Context of Domestic Violence Violence Against Women April 1, 2008 14: 381-405

    Getting Beyond “What Did She Do to Provoke Him?”: Comments by a Retired Judge on the Special Issue on Child Custody and Domestic Violence Violence Against Women January 1, 2008 14: 93-99


  67. KatieS

    Yes, myrtle, I know what you mean. I read some about her online in various places, I didn’t read the book. It’s good to take care of yourself.

    Thanks, for the author from P.


  68. myrtle


    Would you look at the fucking subscription costs to information about OUR lives that MEN will be making their living off?

    Institutional Subscription, Combined (Print & E-access) $1,141.00
    Institutional Subscription & Backfile Lease, Combined Plus Backfile (Current Volume Print & All Online Content) $1,255.00
    Institutional Subscription, E-access $1,027.00
    Institutional Subscription & Backfile Lease, E-access Plus Backfile (All Online Content) $1,141.00
    Institutional Backfile Purchase, E-access (Content through 1998) $1,027.00
    Institutional Subscription, Print Only $1,118.00
    Individual Subscription, Print Only $283.00


  69. KatieS

    Yep, myrtle. The internet was supposed to make all kinds of information available and revolutionize things. Instead, all the meaty stuff is behind closed doors for the rich. The other stuff that’s freely available is loaded with popup ads, often of poor quality, etc. Plus all kinds of strange stuff being fed to us that’s clearly advertising, patriarchal propaganda, and perhaps to mine our names.

    The women who do this research don’t get paid, either. They get to keep their jobs in academia where it’s publish or perish. Those database owners seem to be making a bundle, though. And since the researchers have to use them, they are stuck with the bill.

    I used to get my news online from the raw newsfeeds, before windows (I had a Mac back then). It was fascinating to read them, and all kinds of uncensored stuff, scary and quite weird, but from real news reports, stuff that never ever made the newspapers. After a while that no longer existed. I pretty much lost interest in most of it for a long time because it was so watered down and stupid.

    I have to admit, I’ve gotten addicted now to these radfem blogs, some fresh viewpoints.


  70. FAB Libber / Dave the Squirrel Post author

    But women do know where they are in this Fab.

    I disagree. Any woman (no matter what her status) can be raped at anytime by any rapist. Does not matter what deals you make, or how you think you are protected, what actually matters in all this is where the woman is in the rapist’s virgin-whore scale. Married women get raped too, even RWW, either by their ‘owners’ or by others (known or unknown). A woman may THINK they know where they are on this scale – but her perception is not universal in the minds of all rapists.

    If you are female, there is no guarantee that you will not be raped.


  71. survivorthriver

    Can the administrator of this fabulous forum forward my personal email or forward yours on to mine? Or? I’m happy to learn more.


  72. myrtle

    Ok we’ll trust she’ll remove it tout suite.




  73. FabLibber / DaveSquirrel Post author

    Bias in Psychiatric Diagnosis Website Exposes Problems With New DSM-5

    July 13, 2011 – The Bias in Psychiatric Diagnosis website (http://awpsych.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=102&Itemid=126) was recently updated to highlight a myriad of concerns about the upcoming 5th edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (DSM-5) that is scheduled to be released in 2013.

    Published by the American Psychiatric Association, the DSM-5 is a reference text used to diagnose what its authors choose to label “mental disorders”; however, numerous individuals, including three editors of previous DSM editions, and professional organizations, including the Association for Women in Psychology and the American Counseling Association, have expressed misgivings about the ethics, science, implications and processes involved with the new manual development.

    Paula J. Caplan, clinical psychologist, researcher at Harvard University and author of “They Say You’re Crazy: How the World’s Most Powerful Psychiatrists Decide Who’s Normal,” chairs the committee of academics, researchers and clinicians who updated the Association for Women in Psychology Bias in Psychiatric Diagnosis website. The updated web site provides information for mental health professionals, journalists and other interested individuals about newly proposed diagnostic categories and problems with psychiatric diagnosis.

    The website hosts a collection of materials that provide evidence of discrimination, lack of empirical evidence and critiques of the DSM-5 manual preparation process. Articles on the site highlight newly proposed diagnoses, such as obesity and female sexual dysfunction, that are under-researched, have limited empirical support, and are politically motivated or based on methodologically weak studies. There is concern that the medicalization of normal, everyday or socially-created problems will falsely inflate the rates of mental disorders.

    Some of the newly proposed diagnoses may have detrimental social and legal consequences. Parental Alienation Syndrome could serve to defend parents accused of sexual abuse. Paraphilic Coercive Disorder can constitute a virtually automatic ground for a reduced sentence for rapists without taking into consideration a sociocultural environment that perpetuates violence. Premenstrual Dysphoric Disorder, which has far-reaching sociopolitical consequences and little empirical evidence, pathologizes women’s natural human experience and has not been shown by well-done research to be a valid entity.

    Several psychiatric diagnoses may be more related to social marginalization, poverty and discrimination than individual pathology; however, individuals are labeled with little regard to circumstance. Biological and medical factors are being overemphasized while political, social, cultural and systemic issues are being minimized or ignored, despite the bulk of social science research that substantiates the magnitude of contextual factors.

    The Bias in Psychiatric website includes articles, related references, links, and announcements about conferences and publications and is located at http://awpsych.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=102&Itemid=126

    The Association for Women in Psychology (AWP) is a scientific and educational professional organization of psychologists and other social scientists committed to encouraging feminist psychological research, practice, theory and activism.


    Contact: Audrey Ervin, Ph.D.
    Spokesperson, Association for Women in Psychology
    Tel. 1-267-935-9577


  74. myrtle

    The Association for Women in Psychology (AWP) is a scientific and educational professional organization of psychologists and other social scientists committed to encouraging feminist psychological research, practice, theory and activism.

    They have a good roundup of misogynistic punishing psyche diagnoses on women.



  75. myrtle

    Remember the story urging women to be vaccinated with dangerous, unproven, side-effect unto death riven Gardasil; to protect their husbands and male partners who were inexplicably (cough cough) being diagnosed with throat cancer? This time, it’s syphilis.

    Note how the media keeps us in suspense LOL until the last sentence to tell us who these syphilitic cheaters are. They’re PEOPLE, then ONE, also YOU, careening into PARTNERS.

    Finally, MEN.

    “If you have casual anonymous sex with someone, you might not be aware of their history, and you may not take the same precautions,” he said. “A lot of it has to do with the sheer numbers of partners involved.”

    Hatchette said studies in the United States have found a strong correlation between Internet dating and syphilis outbreaks.

    People must be aware of the risks inherent in oral sex, Hatchette said, and that syphilis can easily be transmitted this way. He added that a syphilis infection makes one more vulnerable to other infections such as AIDS.

    Interviews with health workers revealed some of the infected men also have sex with women, so the outbreak is expected to spread to females as well.



  76. myrtle

    Oh they did drop the word in the first several paragraphs. But then there was this hurried smokescreen like they had to cover it up quick.

    In this mocktastic health site warning about syphilis, we meet OralLaura, as if this plague was being caused by WOMEN.

    “In the 1990s, the Public Health Agency of Canada considered it possible that the elimination of syphilis was on the horizon. But since then the number of cases has skyrocketed. In 2009, there were 1,683 confirmed cases, 1,501 of which affected men.”

    I missed this indeterminate syphilitic descriptor from the other post where they tell us exactly who is doing this disease spreading.


  77. myrtle

    Violent selfish fathers vs. violent selfish mothers
    By Phyllis Chesler

    During the time that Florida mother Casey Anthony was in custody and on trial, any number of American fathers, stepfathers, and live-in boyfriends killed their children.

    Daily, the local and national media dutifully report awful examples of paternal cruelty and infanticidal violence.

    Most recently, on June 30, 2011, a single Texas father, Carlos Rico, choked his four-year-old son, and then left him for dead; miraculously the boy lived. This father faces attempted murder charges. One wonders whether he will become a media sensation. He should. His only motivation seems to have been that his son’s very devoted stepmother left him and changed her Facebook status to “single.”

    On June 13, 2011, a 37-year-old Maine father shot his wife and their two children (ages 12 and 13) inside their home. Angry and frustrated about an ongoing custody dispute, he resolved the matter by killing everyone, including himself.

    On May 8, 2011, a Los Angeles father shot his girlfriend, their two five-year old twins, and then himself. Precious little ink has been spilled about this.

    On April 19, 2011, an Arkansas father ran over his two children, ages 18 months and 4 years-old; he was arrested and was charged with two counts of capital murder.

    Nobody knows his name. No petitions have been launched, no demonstrations held. For the record, his name is Robert Carter and he is 23 years-old.

    In addition, during this approximately two month period, if we are to believe the existing studies, an untold number of fathers abused their wives and children both physically and sexually.

    However, the American public did not launch any vocal campaigns against any of these violent and abusive fathers or against fathers in general.

    Why not? People expect men to be violent. It is a given. When male-on-male, male-on-female, or male-on child violence erupts, people are not all that surprised and they do not condemn all fathers for the crimes of a few. In general, people want to forgive male sinners, or at least to show them compassion.

    This is not true where mothers are concerned. In general, once a mother is accused—merely accused—the accusation itself psychologically convicts her. Unconsciously and automatically, people presume that she is guilty, not innocent. Her sexual and reproductive history is held against her, as is everything else.

    We tend to have double standards when it comes to parenting. We expect much less of fathers and are ready to reward them for doing very little or to forgive them for failing one or two or three obligations: marrying the mother of their children, economically supporting the family, “helping out” from time to time. We do not expect fathers to fight for custody and when they do we are quick to assume that there must really be something wrong with the mother and that the fighting father is heroic.

    According to an original study included in the updated and revised second edition of “Mothers on Trial. The Battle for Children and Custody,” which features eight entirely new chapters to honor its 25th anniversary—the kinds of fathers who battle for custody are wife batterers (62%) who willingly impoverished the mothers of their children (67%) and also kidnapped their children (37%). Few of the paternal kidnappers were ever found and when they were, they were rarely jailed or custodially punished. Paternal kidnappings continue to this day and are far more common than stranger kidnappings.

    When mothers kidnapped their children (mainly in order to protect them from being beaten or repeatedly raped by their fathers), they were invariably hunted down, jailed for long periods, and punished with limited and supervised visitation.

    Which brings me to Casey Anthony. I am not privy to any insider details about the case. Neither the jury nor I know who murdered poor Caylee.

    I have never met the mother.

    What I am familiar with is the lynch-like sentiments of strangers who wish this mother dead. Why? Because she is seen as a “slut?” This is not a capital crime.

    Or, more to the point, because she did not report her child missing within minutes as any normal, caring mother would do? This behavior is quite upsetting, troubling, but it does not mean she murdered her daughter. It does mean that her anti-maternal behavior has upset many grownups.

    Why are people so upset by what they see as her lack of maternalism? Just as we expect men to be violent, we do not expect women, especially mothers, to be violent, and certainly not violent towards their own young and helpless children. Mothers are seen as civilization’s last line of defense against violence and anarchy. We each personally feel endangered, we each identify with the murdered or abused child, and our fury at the mother knows no bounds.

    All women, all mothers, are seen as caretakers, and if even one mother turns bad, our species and culture as a whole feels endangered.

    Phyllis Chesler, Ph.D. is a frequent contributor to Fox News Opinion. She is the author of thirteen books, including the 25th anniversary edition of “Mothers on Trial” and may be reached at her website http://www.phyllis-chesler.com


  78. myrtle

    Honour second-wavers. Some of them toil daily still, in spite of age, illness, caregiving responsibilities and being forgotten by feminists. Is there a lib feminist who would not say “Phyllis who?”

    This ran on the Fox News site. We can expect a raft of flames, but I’ve given the eponymous website source.


  79. FabLibber / DaveSquirrel Post author

    zmog, talk about hide-the-shaggers!

    Interviews with health workers revealed some of the infected men also have sex with women, so the outbreak is expected to spread to females as well.

    This, by general omission says it is MEN who have it, men who are spreading to each other.

    In 2009, there were 1,683 confirmed cases, 1,501 of which affected men.

    And again, that is men men men with it. 89% of cases. So what does that tell us? And I will bet that the 182 female cases got it from the ones in 1,501.

    It’s obvious, that men are not only have extra-marital sex, sneaky sex, casual sex, but they are also doing extra-marital / sneaky / casual homosexual sex as well. It can only be explained that way, otherwise cases would be far more even male:female. Even a 60:40 would indicate generally het sex, with males having more partners. But when we are clocking up near on 90% of the cases, they are playing daisy chain.


  80. survivorthriver

    Oops, I accidentally signed in there with my Facebook, could you delete that mugshot? Here’s my comment:
    It always fried me that women were treated with Gardasil because the HPV virus lives in the prostate. Now they are recommending boys to get the Gardasil, or they have them roped into clinical trials because boys are getting oral HPV (then cancer) of the mouth and anus as well.

    The rates of oral and anal cancers are sky rocketing as well, thanks to porn-induced sex practices popularized by the monkey-see monkey-do-to-you entitled male demand. That is, HPV infects other body cavities with HPV virus and that turns into cancers.

    Also, if a woman has cervical cancer as a result of HPV infection, like myself, even after surgery, then we have a lifetime of uncertainty as those HPV types also cause OTHER reproductive cancers “down there” down the road.. No Fun. No end to the scourge of the spooge.
    -technobook the angleworm


  81. FabLibber / DaveSquirrel Post author

    The Chesler article was excellent, that study sounds interesting, and it makes perfect sense really. Divorcing a NiceGuy, one probably can – most of the time – work out an arrangement amicably. Lundy Bancroft in his book writes how abusers fighting for custody is just one more opportunity to abuse the victim.


  82. myrtle

    I didn’t look to see if there were comments after the Fox News site printing of Chesler’s article. I don’t want to read them anyway.

    I am (not) shocked but saddend to learn that these two women who have been working FOR women all their lives, who now in their 60s, work without clerical staff, or pay. I wonder if their male colleagues do that?

    There’s a great graph I couldn’t copy in on The Star’s version of the syphilis story.


  83. FabLibber / DaveSquirrel Post author

    I have updated The Star’s link to a live link, because as a dead link, WP corrects the double hypen into an m-dash.

    I don’t care if they follow it back, they need to be told off for hiding-the-perps.


  84. survivorthriver

    Yup, survived that too.

    I LOVE that Stars article by Chesler, I’m busting on over there and blazing some sass in support.

    I’m 58. I’m lucky because a cousin-friend was 5 years older then me and she went to very fine radical U.C. Berkley in the late 1960’s. Through her I got radicalized. I “pass” for a het, but I’m actually a nothing now.

    I never took a man’s name, have worked for my own livelihood as solo mum raising 2 girls 17 years now (almost done with that project), and I just always attempted to isolate myself from “male availability” such as teaching fitness to women, owning a preschool, or, if I had to job in with men I preferred at least a security business with locked glass door entries so I only had to keep my eyes out for my colleagues and wasn’t available as a desk clerk in public to have so much more interface with the vectors of the patriarchy.

    Back then, Ii was thrilling to see women demonstrating at the Miss America pageant due to their swimsuit contest. It was thrilling to read Chesler, Dworkin, Brownmiller, Stein, and then to go to college with at least a few more new younger female professors. I watched this wave build, grow, and I cheered. Then the sly co-optation began. First, the name of a popular perfume featuring the “new woman”. Then the Anita Bryant (Miss Florida?) backlash by the conservative dingbats began. I mean what did she know, she was a spokesperson for the Florida Orange Juice Association. But, Phyllis Shafly followed.

    Then, the long fight for the E.R.A., and just 3 states short of that the U.S. balked. Abortion and contraceptives were won, however. With birth control pills came the roaring het sex fest. Overnight women “could” have sex with less fear of pregnancy. I was fertile before the pill was available, and had a teenage boyfriend. The FEAR you had to keep in your frontal cortex at all times not to let this fearsome thing happen to you is a fear I can still remember. To have been freed from that fear of pregnancy was a huge huge relief, and felt so liberating. Pills actually simulate early pregnancy, and many women lose their libido (some permanently) in this haze of false PG, and it made women available 24/7 for PIV and launched the faux “recreational sex” movement. That sounded liberated at the time,but it fueled such a stench of male entitlement demands that have never gone away and ooze out of ever molecule of our society now.

    Women fought to get in trade unions, and salary equity was even studied by our state in a “Comparable Worth Study” the only one of its kind and not done again. The anti-rape “Take Back the Night” organizing was underway, and there were lots of marches. Madison Avenue created more images of “strong AND sexy” women in advertising, one jingle breezily sang “And they call her charley, kind’ve free kind’ve now, charley…..” as Cheryl Tiegs strode on the sidewalk with her long swishingly beautiful and unattainable legs. Women in the U.S. entered sports due to Title IX, the biggest game changer in sports in my lifetime gave females access to school sports. The academics and the wonderful writers proliferated, but the mainstream press called it “women’s issues” and “womens studies” got shoved into a small corner of the universities. Technology came onto the scene, and without my knowing it the internet got clogged with this new kind of porn. As a woman I didn’t pay attention for decades to the online porn revolution which was certainly created by and for men, but about women (sort’ve, really about men’s egos stroked by pornstitutes who should never be called a “star” or “actress” and they act like they like that crap and then the menz int he audience thinks its okay to try that crap on his partner and she should act like she likes it).

    The whole catastrophe to see my modern world now riddled with political corruption, new levels of gender trauma horrors visited upon women in wars, depletion of earth and our precious resources for the luxury lifestyle of elite doods, “free trade” bs, and while women have really “come a long way baby” (how they sold cigarettes, the Virginia Slims) this slimey underbelly of the pornification of sexuality (thanks Dines!) now blooms right under my nose spreading its miasma of misogyny and naked utter contempt and hatred of women. As women grew more able to use their power, the bar for both their physical appearance to look like a Barbie, the fitness bar that she’s now “chiselled”, and the extra work of a Second Shift where successful women have to do it all.

    And, back to this pornstitution issue. Porn drives demand for sex trafficking, and as I understand it that ever since Russia broke up and her poor regions began buying their women for “foreign employment” – the ruse commonly used to lure average women away from their homes to earn good money but then they become trapped in the sex trade – and now the domestic and international trafficking of our daughters and sons is in full swing. I’m sure there has always been slavery. But remember, the abolitionist women worked for the emancipation of blacks before working for the rights of women. Women were a huge part of the Civil War story, and wasn’t it Elizabeth Cady Stanton that railed for women to work for their own emancipation?

    Well, the underlash and overlash and backlash against women continued full bore so as today we have the bloody decimation of more species a day in earth’s history. As women have earned some freedoms in some Western countries, we are inheriting an impoverished, sick, brutal, epicurean and bankrupt culture. We’re all getting more cancer from the environmental pollution while corporate profits are whisked offshore. And all these frigging years women were hamstrung by the “abortion issue”, our energy drained and sapped (not to mention abortion cliinics bombed and workers killed or maimed) just to keep the one gain which really sticks it to our Guyble thumpers.

    I am so very sorry to have splat this blog with so much wordage today.

    I have survived so very much. yay! -as the angleworm turns


  85. myrtle

    Lordy you have survived so much.

    On related note, speaking yesterday to Ukrainian immigrants (30 yrs here), who told me when they visited Kiev last time they saw many, many old people and women with children on the street begging, not for “spare change” but for food. Now that’s hard to hear.

    And the jobs? Well, as an advocacy group rightly pointed out, Ukraine is no longer the bread basket of eastern Europe, it’s the brothel.


  86. FabLibber / DaveSquirrel Post author

    To the dude that got here via this search term:
    women wearing revealing loose short shots at the park photos
    You are a creepy fucking pervert.

    And his buddy:
    misogyny cake
    Nope, you won’t find that here either. Try an MRA site.



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