I wanted to pull out one or two comments from the MumsNet thread, the first being from page 8.
StewieGriffinsMom Thu 10-Mar-11 18:07:12
The issue of transgendered people I find very interesting because I don’t think they’ve co-opted the medical community. I think they’re being victimised by some of the more heinous aspects/individuals in the medical community; specifically in terms of having to travel overseas to have surgery done at, frankly, dodgy clinics with very high rates of fuck-ups. If they had ‘co-opted’ the medical establishment, more surgeries would be free on the NHS by qualified and competent surgeons. The very fact that they do have to travel to have [affordable] surgeries in places with very poor healthcare suggests to me that it is all about the money and not about the people.
If transgendered people were truly accepted, they would not have statistically higher than average [for women] involvement in the sex industry, high rates of self-harm or suicide nor would they be the butt of jokes in the media.
Like Lenin, the political fall-out of the individual is what bothers me. I do not want, however, for someone who feels they are not alien in their body, to continue to feel that way and I want them to be able to do what is necessary, as individuals, to be happy because everyone deserves this.
Does this make sense?
The first thing I would say to StewieGriffinsMom, regarding the ‘establishment’ support of trans, is that yes they can a lot done on the NHS, but it does vary from place-to-place. See this response from a M2T to another contemplating M2T.
If you ‘go Private’, then yes, you will have to pay. The cost varies depending which surgeon you choose, but is usually in the region of £8-12 000. The main advantage of private treatment is speed; private specialists tend to ‘drag their feet’ less than the NHS centres do.
The NHS will perform this surgery ‘free at the point of delivery’ (you pay for it indirectly through taxes and NI contributions). Where you live will make a difference; Although it’s technically illegal for any PCT to flatly refuse to fund any procedure, they can, and many do, place severe restrictions on how many procedures they’ll fund, and what eligibility criteria they use. The NHS will not (usually; there are some PCTs who will) fund breast augmentation, hair removal, facial surgery and, in many cases, speech therapy; if you need any of these, you’ll have to pay for them privately.
I’m a trans woman, and I work for the NHS.
(posted 2 years ago)
So the bottom line is that a lot of SRS can be done free on the NHS (sometimes dependant on location), but the NHS usually make you wait for years for this stuff after the GID diagnosis. Hence a lot of M2Ts actually opt to go overseas (or pay privately in the UK), because, having lived their lives as men and having more disposable income, they have the dosh at their disposal. So the “poor widdle twanz” argument really does not hold water, considering they have access to funds that most FABs can only ever dream of.
As for the government establishment supposedly not supporting trans, that too is bullshit. In the 60s-70s, it took thousands of women taking to the streets to protest this, across many countries, before the governments reluctantly introduced equal pay legislation. However, 30-40 years later, and FABs are still routinely paid 80 cents to the male dollar. There have been NO mass street demonstrations of trans in the streets to obtain their ‘rights’ to SRS and acknowledgement of their ‘gender’ (sex) status, yet, in twenty seconds or less, trans can get their birth certificates altered, proceedures on the NHS, reallocation to women’s prisons, with trans barely chipping their nailpolish. If that is not catering and supporting trans, I don’t know what is.
As for the “If transgendered people were truly accepted” part, again, this is primarily male violence against trans we are talking about, yet FABs are The Big Meanies in this whole thing. I have said time and time again, I would accept M2Ts in feminism, IF they would support all feminist aims (like reproduction issues) and not try to hijack feminism for their own agenda. Reproductive issues do not concern me personally, but I still fight for the feminist cause in these areas. I would also accept M2Ts in SOME FAB-only spaces, IF they were discriminating as to who comes under the Trans Parasol, but they won’t, nor will they understand that some FAB-only spaces have to be off limits for safety and religious reasons (like Muslim women not being able to share accomodation with unrelated males). But they won’t. They have no concern for FAB safety, and the priorities are all about trans.
As for the high rates in the sex industry, well, GallusMag answered that one beautifully with “Many transgender males work as prostitutes just for the sport of it, not for the money.” Very few (if any) FABs work in prostitution for the ‘sport’, it is for the money.
The self-harm and suicide rates are indicative of not sorting out the root of the problem to begin with. Many M2Ts will suicide AFTER transition/SRS, because gender roles and SRS were not the cause/solution to their problems, it was a bandaid solution that did not address the underlying problems. Some of it is body dysmorphia as well, and non-sexualised body dysmorphia is not treated by indulging the patient in their delusions, it is treated to try and get the patient to see reality and the irrationality of their thoughts. And the meeja make fun of FABs performing femininity all the damn time, so no special snowflake award to be had there.
And finally, I seriously have to ask, why-oh-why, what is ChippedChampagneGlass doing on a site called MumsNet?
ChippedChampagneGlass Sun 13-Mar-11 17:05:45
On the trans rights thing…
I’ll declare a interest – born a boy, now a girl (if that label is right in your 40s…).
Thing is this, if you saw me walking down the street, the chances are you wouldn’t see anything different about me to any other middle aged woman. To that end, why should I be treated differently in any way?
I can’t speak for others, although I would say the militant trans / gender queer folk often scare me, but for me the only use of “rights” is to get functional equality – banking, legal ID and so on. Apart from that I’ll fend for my self like any other woman in the workplace, home and society as a whole? I certainly don’t want any extra rights or privilege, just occasionally I need something thats slightly different to reflect circumstance.
This morning I read a piece in the Telegraph, I think it was yesterdays, about a woman confronting the man who raped her in a car park. It got me thinking again about personal safety. It was ironically about the time rape cropped up on this thread. Sorry if this offends, its not meant to, but the thing is this: I’m “pre op” (ugh horrid term), so suppose I’m am attacked by someone with a knife, the attacker discovers my pre op status, what happens next? I suspect theres a high chance of my being stabbed? I’m not going to say that makes me more vulnerable than any other woman, or gives me special status, God no, I’m just pointing out the twist that can go unmissed. Its a worry I live with.
Are we also supposed to support
Stan’s Loretta’s right to have babies, even though he doesn’t have a womb, which is no-body’s fault, not even the Roman’s?
It’s symbolic of his struggle against reality …
To ChippedChampagneGlass I say, plenty of FABs get murdered, just for the ‘privilege’ of being raped (first). Again, no special snowflake award to be had here.
Of course, ChippedChampagneGlass proved my earlier point about all these issues being concerned about trans, and fuck-all to do with FABs.
But of course, sakura did a great response to
Stan Loretta anyway:
sakura Mon 14-Mar-11 12:28:12
women are killed on a regular basis for having the temerity to exist.
Do you want to know why men attack trans women? Because it reminds them that the sexual hierarchy is fake , that they too, can be fucked/raped by another heterosexual man, and this angers them because that subordinate, debased (in their eyes), status is reserved for women. So when they see a man play acting the female role it reminds them how precarious the whole set-up is. This angers the hell out of them. BUt it doesn’t anger them as much as an actual woman does.
It’s starting to boil down to whether people truly understand what woman-hatred is. “Raping a woman before killing her made you a double veteran” said a Vietnam con. You have to get really knee-deep into the sheer depths if women-loathng that goes on everywhere, before you can make a proper analysis here.
Steth, you have submitted to the trans demand that women be labelled, yet again, as other . It’s not original. Cis-woman, by definition is women in^ ^relation to trans women. Just like women have always been viewed in relation to men.
From Aristotle to Freud men have always viewed women as a negative, a defect, the other, in relation to them, and you are merely continuing this happy patriarchal fallacy by using the term “cis”
As always, see the standard disclaimer and cry me a river.